Samyang/Rokinon 16mm image circle

[rick.lang]

Just wanted to update everyone on my recent exchange with Rokinon USA regarding the image circle of the 16mm T2.2. I finally received the news from the Samyang lens factory in South Korea. The answer is that the image circle for the Rokinon/Samyang 16mm Ciné T2.2 APS-C lens is... (drum roll please)... 30mm. Looks like good news since the diagonal on the new 4.6K is 29.08mm. No idea what the corners will look like until it's verified on the URSA/Mini, but it just may work on a true Super 35 3-perf sensor! I did ask them for the "useful" image circle so hoping the corners will be tolerable.

Rokinon also advised that the Rokinon 10mm T3.1 Ciné DS for APS-C cameras has an image circle of 28.37mm, so that won't work with the 4.6K sensor in open gate (for raw or ProRes that uses the full sensor area). But the 10mm will work on the URSA/Mini 4K and the BMPC4K.

[DPStewart]

Good to know.
Thanks for doing that Rick.

[Phil]

did they say anything about 14mm Rick?

[rick.lang]

Phil, I didn't ask about that Rokinon 14mm T3.1 lens because it has the non-removable lens hood and doesn't take screw-on filters. Also did you see Vic's recent post that he feels that lens is the worst of the Rokinon's he has? If you are still interested in the 14mm after seeing Vic's assessment, I can ask if he actually was sent a list of image circles for more than those two Ciné DS lenses.

Let me know what you are interested in. I do think the 16mm is superior to the 14mm now I know it should cover the 4.6K sensor, but if you want to cover VistaVision, then, yes, you might want the 14mm as it does cover 'full frame.'

[rick.lang]

Good to know.
Thanks for doing that Rick.

Stewart, I only asked about the 16mm in a list of lenses I gave them that I wanted to use with the URSA Mini 4.6K EF camera. Since Rokinon produces a lovely brochure on all their lenses, but the published specs do not include the image circles, I just needed to know the 16mm APS-C image circle. I wish I had asked for all the Cine DS lenses for EF mount.

The contact supplied the 10mm image circle on his own initiative and that is good to know since that smaller image circle will cover comfortably windowed UHD and raw 4096 x 2304 for those wanting to use that window. Also for those wanting the raw CinemaScope window 4608 x 1920, the window diagonal is 27.46mm so the Rokinon 10mm Ciné DS APS-C will cover it (28.37 image circle). Again, need to test the image quality in the corners with that lens. And another non-removable lens hood, grrrh. Would very interesting to see what that 10mm lens does in terms of the angle of view shooting with the 4.6K at full sensor width CinemaScope.

Am I in danger of needing an 'intervention' before I become a hopelessly addicted lens addict like the rest of you?

I did also ask about the 12mm T2.2 Ciné but since he knew I wanted all my lenses to be EF mount in the Ciné DS series and the 12mm T2.2 Ciné isn't in an EF mount, he didn't think I wanted that after all.

[Phil]

Phil, I didn't ask about that Rokinon 14mm T3.1 lens because it has the non-removable lens hood and doesn't take screw-on filters. Also did you see Vic's recent post that he feels that lens is the worst of the Rokinon's he has? If you are still interested in the 14mm after seeing Vic's assessment, I can ask if he actually was sent a list of image circles for more than those two Ciné DS lenses.

Let me know what you are interested in. I do think the 16mm is superior to the 14mm now I know it should cover the 4.6K sensor, but if you want to cover VistaVision, then, yes, you might want the 14mm as it does cover 'full frame.'

Thanks Rick, its ok I only ask because I have a couple of 14mm ones used for the BMCC, on the 4.6 its going to be insanely wide which could be good for some things like .......Vistavision views of countryside!

[rick.lang]

Thanks Rick, its ok I only ask because I have a couple of 14mm ones used for the BMCC, on the 4.6 its going to be insanely wide which could be good for some things like .......Vistavision views of countryside!

As for insanely wide, that 10mm Rokinon looks pretty good in the videos I've been watching. Honestly seems a sharper image at least in the centre and mid-range. Still looking for a good chart test of the corners for the 10mm. Yes, when shooting with the 4608 x 1920 window (2.4:1), it's going to be insane for a rectilinear lens with a horizontal angle of view of 103.4 degrees, but when going to the DCI 2K window for HFR, the 10mm provides a modest horizontal angle of view of 58.8 degrees which looks like a 32mm lens on a 135 film camera. Suddenly that 10mm lens looks like an essential lens to have in your kit when you want HFR to follow a moving subject.

The 16mm is even more necessary to have for HFR as its angle of view on the DCI 2K window is very close to that of a normal lens for 135 film. With both of these wide lenses I know you don't want to be very close to your talent or their faces are going to look distorted, but for general work should be great lenses to have.

I think I'm going to shoot everything (or at least deliver) in 2.4:1 aspect ratio simply because I like it so much in the videos I see online.

I've never heard anything more about SLR Magic's 2x anamorphic lens family other than the 70mm PL mount and nothing either about their APO lens family other than the 50mm. I'm pretty close now to abandoning the dream of going with the PL mount because I just can't afford to put together a set of PL lenses. I'm willing to try if I knew what SLR Magic will commit to doing, but Andrew Chan just doesn't share his plans for the future.

It would have been a pleasure to shoot with a PL mount and lenses that are less compromised than the EF mount, but I'm sure I'll survive and be thrilled to assemble a set of Rokinon Ciné DS lenses (10, 16, 24, 35, 50, 85, 100 macro, 135) which includes some stellar performers optically at least. I know the build quality can be an issue so having low expectations there is a healthy approach.

I've learned over these last three years on this forum, there's no perfect camera, and no perfect lens family that non-professionals can justify. The URSA Mini 4.6K EF with a set of manual lenses will still be a wonderful tool to possess.

[andieymi]

Good to know! It's interesting how these larger sensors affect lens choices now. With the BMCC everything was fine when going with APS-C, the Red guys over at reduser are going crazy and speculate which lenses will cover the Vista Vision of the Weapon, reminds me a little bit

But it will be really interesting, which APS-C lenses cover the new sensor...

[rick.lang]

A lot of RED users are quite confident they'll have lenses in their kit that cover the 8K Dragon, but like me hoping to push some Rokinon APS-C lenses on a true Super 35 sensor, even if the image circle technically covers the larger sensors, it doesn't guarantee they'll find the lenses useful on the larger sensors since the lens' vignetting may be more noticeable and the distortion is likely more severe on the larger the sensor. I think one of the reasons a lot of lenses don't have their image circle published is that the manufacturer doesn't want to mislead anyone about the capabilities of a lens at the extremes of the frame.

Great Phil Holland has generously offered to test his lenses, including Rokinons, when he gets access to an 8K Dragon chip. That man appears to never sleep! Reminds me of John Brawley who is so busy, but still has time for the forums thankfully.

I've updated my Angle of View app on the iPhone to define all sensors as using the 12:5 aspect ratio (BMD's 2.4:1 windows) since that's what I'm going to use. If an APS-C doesn't handle the 4608 x 1920 window well, I can still try the 4096 x 2304 window which I'll reframe to DCI 4K 4096 x 1716. And there is still the option of ProRes UHD windowed for the APS-C lenses that don't cover the 4.6K sensor open gate. I think I'll be happy with that.

Although there's no window for it on the 4.6K sensor, I could also crop to 3996 x 2160 and use the 1.85:1 aspect ratio I also like. It's really such a flexible sensor BMD is offering now.

[rick.lang]

For anyone interested in using APS-C lenses on the 4.6K sensor, including for 2.4:1 deliverables, here are some of the diagonal lengths for various frames on the new sensor. Remember the 16mm Rokinon will cover 30mm ans so might be useable on the 4.6K sensor open gate, but the 10mm Rokinon will only cover 28.37mm so it is limited to using the sensor windows.

16:9 ....................... open gate ... raw ................. 4608 x 2592 ... / 29.08mm
2.40:1 .................... window ....... raw ................. 4608 x 1920 ... / 27.46mm
16:9 4K .................. window ....... raw ................. 4096 x 2304 ... / 25.85mm
1.85:1 .................... crop ........... raw ................. 3996 x 2160 ... / 24.98mm
2.39:1 DCI 4K ......... crop ........... raw ................. 4096 x 1716 ... / 24.43mm
16:9 UHD ............... window ....... ProRes or raw ... 3840 x 2160 ... / 24.23mm
1.20:1 anamorphic ... window ...... raw ................. 3072 x 2560 ... / 21.99mm
2.39:1 DCI 2K .......... crop .......... raw ................. 2048 x 858 ..... / 12.21mm
16:9 HD .................. window ...... ProRes or raw ... 1920 x 1080 ... / 12.12mm

For anyone who is favourably inclined to a retro Instagram-like frame, using the anamorphic window with a spherical lens might actually lead to some nice framing using the 6:5 window.